Ron and Tim's conversation

Good Morning AllI just thought that it was time for some new thoughts.(Except for one old thought. Ron, you asked Caroline to pray aboutbecoming coordinator for the gleaners. She is still considering - and will havetime for the praying required soon.-busy week for her. But maybe she istoo obvious a choice, she (and I in a bumbling way :) see things and tryto make them work better. But how do we let God work through this? Was this request because of a message from God or the result of an observation?

Maybe God wants to stretch and grow a less obvious (to us) person –like Dean or Gary or Pam or Jimmy or Troy or etc ...?) T

I think God is already doing some stretching and growing in all of the people here. As far as asking Caroline to be the co-ordinator for the Second Gleaners Ministry here is how it happened. That first Saturday, I was prayerfully observing people serving other people. Mainly thanking God for the opportunity He was giving us to be salt and light to those who came and to each other, but I was also asking for eyes to see whom He had in mind to raise up. I saw Caroline taking on somewhat of a lead role and so I made a mental note of that. She was not the only one I made mental notes on by the way so watch out! J After a while, Jim Dornbush came up to me and said “It looks like you’ve got yourself a good leader there and he nodded toward Caroline. I agreed with him and we continued talking about how things were going. Shortly after that, I was talking with the driver, Tim, and he made mention of the fact that we had a great group of people doing the work. Then he too singled out Caroline as someone he had noticed who had taken charge and was getting things done in an orderly fashion.

Now, was that God talking to me or was it just human observation? I know what I believe it to be but you will have to decide for yourself.

Let me also say that the dreams I have been given of what this community could be and accomplish are much bigger than I can even begin to articulate and before it is all said and done, each of us is going to stretched and grown beyond what we can imagine today. R

See y'all Saturday!? (Funny, spell-checker wants to suggest YALE as a replacement for y'all) T

That’s because it is a Yankee spell checker! R

Growth through study, growth through service seems to be the message of the reading this week. A balance. I didn't see anything about programs in the reading. I don't have it with me today but one quote that sticks with me is the one about " ... not family until you take the garbage out .. T

"James says it best: “Faith without works is dead” or to quote Rich Mullins “Faith without works is like a song you can’t sing, it’s about as useless as a screen door on a submarine.” R

The emergent movement has a lot that I like - especially the emphasis on relationship and community - maybe because that is something that I am not skilled at and desire. So here is an interesting read from a site I look at: T

I didn’t realize until I just read this e-mail how tired I am getting of “labels” for churches. Organic, emergent, traditional, contemporary, charismatic etc. etc. etc. In many ways I think that they do more harm than good. It seems to me that we should be working to unite the body rather than divide it, which I think these terms sometimes do. R

Ten Keys to Sane Church PlantingBy Bob Hyatt
I recently saw a list of 10 Keys to Effective Church Planting. I want to whole-heartedly agree with some and humbly take issue with others (and one in particular)... I don't pretend to know it all- but here are my thoughts as I read through the list. Let's call my reworked thoughtsTen Keys to Sane Church Planting...The list is:
1. Get on your knees and fight like a man.
2. Team-work makes the dream work.
3. Location, location, location
4. Determine your target audience.
5. It takes big money to plant a church.
6. If you build it they still might not come.
7. Clarify the “win”.
8. Set yourself up for success.
9. Focus on life-giving ministry1
10. You get what you expect.So... in order.

1. Get on your knees and fight like a man. Aside from the inherent sexism in the way the statement is made, this is a great, great place to start. "Unless the Lord build a house..." :) T

I would wholeheartedly agree. R

2. Team-work makes the dream work.Yes. It's important not to do this thing alone. T

I would add you can’t do it alone. R

3. Location, location, location Yeah, okay. I hear you. I think our outside-the-box meeting space has done huge things for us (we meet in a pub). But... I want to differentiate between planting a service and actually planting a community. Planting a service is easy. You just need a bunch ofdough, a few people willing to work themselves to death and voila'... and yes, that's all about the location. Planting a community, however, is a bit more ephemeral... a bit harder to quantify into easy-to-follow steps. It's a partnership between the Spirit and desperate people trying hard to listen to that Spirit. It usually results in a Sunday morning (or other time) gathering, and often people are told about it/invited to it... but that's not the heart of a truecommunity is it? T

The heart of a true community would be, in my opinion, the shared value or belief system that draws people together. In our case that would be Jesus Christ. As such then, He should be the determining factor in how we relate not only to each other but just as importantly, to the larger community around us. R

4. Determine your target audience.I guess on this one I would just say- Look in the mirror. Expect that the people who will be part of your community will largely look like you. Expect that, but pray for different.And quit targeting people. I think it freaks them out. T

True. Target the needs, not the people. R

5. It takes big money to plant a church.Okay... If you'll excuse my language, that's a load of xxx. And a dangerous lie to tell to church planters. I wish to God (literally) that people would stop saying this. Is it easier to plant with "big money"? In some ways...And I'm really glad for churches that are able to start with a lot of support. Seriously. The fact that someone is willing to put up thatkind of money on a venture that statistically has an 80% or more chance of failure is amazing in the best sense of the word. A lot of people are putting their wallets where their mouths are to plant churches. But. It's not necessary. You don't have to have "big money" to plant a church... In fact, you might be better off without it. We had $700 a month committed when we planted our community. That's it.But we have kept overhead low, we have made do for the past two years with $600 worth of sound system, my associate pastor worked a full time job until this very month... somehow, we managed to launch a vibrant, growing community without big money.In fact, I've seen churches struggle because of that big money. They "launch" with a full contingent of paid ministry professionals, the whole Kid's Ministry In A Box™ that they bought at some convention somewhere, and the people show up to see the show.And two years later, when their initial bankroll from momma church or daddy church-planting organization runs out, they fold because they have ministry jacked up to artificially high levels, that is, they have more programs and staff and equipment needs than their people can conceivably give for and support... and when that gap between actual giving and budget needs hits, they need to start laying off staff. And that's aspiral that the heavy-initial-investment, programmatic church model can't handle. When the staff starts going, that equates to a cut in services, and the people soon start edging out the back door for some place down the road with something new and exciting (and better funded!) going on... Grim? Yeah... Does it happen to everyone who starts with a big wad of cash? Of course not. Could it? Oh yeah... So why not start simple? Let it grow organically... Different approach, different challenges (for sure)... But do you need "big money" to plant?No, no, no. A thousand times no! And you just might be better offwith a different approach. Sorry... got worked up there. I apologize if I stepped on your toes.This one is a serious button for me... T

I can go either way on this. There are too many variables involved. R

6. If you build it they still might not come.Amen, brother. So... focus less on building and more on being. Be the kind of community (whether you are 10 people or 100) that others will find loving and welcoming, where they can find God and themselves be found. People will show up for that. You can figure out the bells and whistles later. I say, quit being a builder. Try being a gardener... T

I would say focus less on building and more on becoming, not just being. Being could almost be equated with stagnating. R

7. Clarify the “win”.Yeeeeahhh... got no idea what this means. I know about setting quantifiable goals and all that. But we're talking people's souls, not numbers. We're talking about community, not benchmarks. Do your people love God? Win!Do they love each other? Win!Do they love others outside of your little thing? Win!Are you together figuring out how that all works together in community? What that looks like for you as a unique group of Christ followers? Are you feeding people who need food, clothing people who need clothes and generally being Jesus to those God brings in contact with you/your community? Win, win, win!Don't have your five-year plan together? No mission statement? No idea what comes next? Join the club. And don't sweat it.Do the things Jesus is telling your community to do, love people and trust God to build His church and...You'll know the win when you see it. T

Yeah baby! R

8. Set yourself up for success.
Can't argue with that! How do we define success?9. Focus on life-giving ministry And on the Giver of Life T

Or that! R

10. You get what you expect.And hopefully... a whole lot more.Amen? T

Amen and halleluia!Shalom, R
Pastor Ron